My Friend: The prayer " Hail Mary" comes from the text of Luke. Of course we don't pray to her. We ask her to pray FOR us

Me: Why would you do that? Isn't Jesus our ONLY mediator? 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Me: As far as going to Luke to find out about Mary I find Mary and the physical brothers of Jesus going to try to put Jesus in a mental institution (going to take charge of him) reminds me of someone being put in a 'straight jacket': Luke 8 parallel w/ MK 3: 20-21, 31-35

Me: Remember, Mary had no union w/ Joseph until Jesus was born, born of a virgin, who after bearing Jesus - did have union w/ her husband as all married women should.

My Friend: How do you know she lost her virginity? This was not your typical marriage. Mary gave birth to the Son of God while a virgin. You are assuming that the word "until" or "till" has the same meaning today as then.

My Friend: Jesus had no physical brothers. This too is a new invention. Mary was ever- virgin. Luther and Calvin both agreed. Luther believed , like the Catholic Church, that the brothers of Jesus were cousins. There was a man in the fourth century named Helvidius that brought this up but he was countered in a commentary by St. Jerome . Outside of that, this is a new belief.

Me: ...Luther or Calvin... I don't listen to them much... Whether they say Baptism has saving power or not (they actually disagree on this one) ... whether they are right or wrong on any matter doesn't change the truth. In my opinion both Luther and Calvin are clowns. (yes, I know that you can trace all the 'Protestants' back to basically these two) They are clowns the same as Benny Hinn, Hal Lindsey, Joyce Meyers, etc etc etc.

Me: (not to say that they didn't do ANY good, even Militant Muslims do some good, they take care of widows and orphans but you have to also take into acct that they are the ones who create widows and orphans.

Me: To which you might reply / have replied / something about 'private interpretation' and the result being thousands of churches...
My Friend: Because of private interpretation of scripture there are thousands of denominations all with different teachings...

Me: My reply is this...
In the ECW we find Gnostics using some of Pauls' writings. Just because there were some that were using the bible wrong doesn't nullify those who were handling it correctly.


Me: Mary herself referred to herself as a lowly handmaid of Christ Jesus and a disciple of Jesus.

Me: Jesus' brothers were not merely 'cousins' but were in fact brothers from the same womb.

Col 4:10
10My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of Barnabas.

avneyio,j  (anepsios)

Meaning: a cousin

Origin: from 1 (as a cop. pref.) and a prim. root nep

Usage: cousin(1).



Mark 3:31 (and in the other 9 passages I sent you... see below)
And His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him, and called Him.

avdelfo,j  (adelphos)

Meaning: a brother

Origin: from 1 (as a cop. pref.) and delphus (womb)


Me: For some Catholics this is enough for them to reject Catholicism and be on their way to becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ. For others, more is needed, and yet still others, no amount of truth will turn them - as is said in the Scriptures

Lk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead



Me: Jesus had brothers and sisters whose mother also was Mary.

Ps 69:8-9

Mt 1:18-25
Mk 3:20-35
Mk 6:1-6
Lk 8:19-21
Jn 2:12
Jn 7:1-5
Acts 1:12-14
1Cor 9:5
Gal 1:19

BONUS:
Here is an ECW reference to James (one of Jesus' brothers)

James, the brother of Christ according to the flesh... [was] appointed bishop of Jerusalem by the Lord Himself and the apostles.
Apostolic Constitutions (compiled c.390, E) 7.496

Whether Mary had other children or not is a good question, but unfortunately I don't think it is important enough of a topic to convince your Catholic friend to leave his church and join your church instead. There might be good reasons, but not this one and think it's just going off track to try to find "smudges", which your friend could easily do himself also. There is alot of disagreement on this topic, but there could also be the possibility that Joseph was a widower with children already when he married Mary. Also it was common to call anyone from the same tribe of the 12 (Judah, Levi, Simeon, etc) "brother". Your Catholic friend could point out how in the book of Tobit, that Tobiah calls the angel in disguise "brother" for claiming to be from the same tribe as him and also calls Sarah, his bride to be, "sister" for the same reason. A close cousin would definitely be called "brother" in Palestine. There are some theories that Christ's brothers, James, Joses (Joseph), and Jude could have been cousins. At the crucifixion in John 19:25 there is more than one Mary present. 'But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag'dalene.' In Matthew's re-telling of the crucixion, he mentions 'among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zeb'edee' Matt 27:56. Then Mark 15:40- 'There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses'. And at the resurrection in Luke 24:10 'Now it was Mary Mag'dalene and Jo-an'na and Mary the mother of James '. It is not impossible that the James, who is Jesus' brother is also the same James who is son to Mary, wife of Clopas. Since she is mentioned as being Mary's sister (possibly sister-in-law too?) this James would be a cousin to Jesus. Of course this does not prove anything, but I think it demands that you show a little bit of humility in how you talk to your Catholic friend and kindness towards anyone you are reaching out to. You called Martin Luther and Calvin "clowns". I am not fans of either of them, but it shows disrespect. On this board, it asks us not to use any name calling. If someone called a particular ICOC evangelist or teacher a "clown", they would be firmly spoken to. I see no reason why we shouldn't apply the same rule to anyone though, no matter what group or religion they are a part of, so we can be above reproach.

I agree. Like with a lot of denominations, Catholic members are steeped in tradition. Catholics also do not claim the Bible to be their only source of God's word. He will need to gain conviction on the Bible for anything you say to be effective. He will also need to trust you. Even then he may not.