Would like to know of other Disciples in the Church that are going through or have been through a divorce. I could use some insight, advice,encouragement.

I became a disciple in 1994. My wife at the time was 100% against me becoming a Christian. She would 'test' me in many ways. I remember calling Mark Harris who was leading our region at the time and asking if I could divorce her since she had been unfaithful. It was a trying time to be sure. He told me I could but that I didn't 'have to' and to consider her salvation. She would come home at 3 in the morning drunk time and time again. I knew she could change and become a disciple and all that sin would be washed away and she could start afresh. Anyways, she ended up divorcing me but going through the divorce I made every effort to save my marriage so today I have a clear conscience about the divorce. Once the divorce was finalized I began to date. I got engaged and was married to a disciple. It hasn't been all bliss but is heaven compared to my previous marriage.

There is hope for your marriage as long as you are married. many marriages have been resurrected by God. And if she divorces you then you are no longer bound according to Rom 7:1-6, 1Cor 7:15. This according to my understanding applies to disciples who are married to non-believers. If your spouse is/was a disciple then that is between you and God and possibly the church (I'm not sure of all the ifs, buts, and whys) but as for me if my believing wife divorced me for any reason other than adultery then I wouldn't remarry unless it was to her. That's just me.

In unity w/ love, Byron

Hello. I have been a discple for 10 1/2 years. I was married in 2002. We moved to be near my husbands family and a year later he was commiting adultery. We are now divorced, and I could use some others that can relate!

Brothers and Sisters,

It is issues like this one that I believe will be the best use of this forum.  As one who has been in the church for 15 years, I am from the OLD school: where it was preached from the pulpit that members simply DO NOT get divorced.  If a divorce occurred, it was becuase one of the members "fell away".  Unfortunately, holding to this and not dealing with this very contemporary issue resulted in leadership (at least all the leaders that I came into contact with; and I've been a member of a couple of churches) setting themselves up to be ill-equipped to serve their fellowship.

In 2006, I had to make a very personal decision to begin divorce proceedings with my wife of 13 years.  I spent a lot of time talking and praying and getting advice.  However, the advice I sought out was NOT from the leadership.  I did reach out for other members and got a lot of advice.  However, I was the one who had to make the choice.  I decided I would NOT simply use the scriptures to cast the deciding vote.  In my opinion, that is a weak practice and could result in you resenting God in the future should the decision you make go awry.

Of course, my decision put me in direct conflict with what the leadership would have "suggested" (in quotes because different leaders have different levels of "suggesting"; from pointing out options to commanding you using the bible as a weapon).

I experienced pretty much the entire catalog of feelings on an almost daily basis while I was going through it.  I also acknowledged early on what my role was in the situation.  FOR ME, I couldn't remain married to a woman who abandoned me and took my children two states away.  Of course, there were other issues involved and I would be happy to discuss them individually with anyone who might benefit from my experience, but I won't post them here.  I would gladly give out my cell phone number to anyone who wants to hear more about my story.  Send me a private message if you want to discuss it further.

Advice for mass consumption: utilize the services of a mental health professional as well as seeking advice from friends, leaders, and family.  A divorce is a watershed moment for ANYONE, irrespective of your "strength in The Lord".  It is literally catastrophic for one's life, family, and finances.

However, do not allow church dogma to make the decision for you.  YES, 'God hates divorce', we know that.  However, divorce is not, in my opinion, a condemnation to an eternity separate from God if you find yourself in this situation.

In addition, do not let church dogma or decree from the pulpit determine your "status" should you end up divorced.  I actually had a leader tell me that he didn't know if I would be ALLOWED to re-marry after the divorce using scripture to determine what was acceptable to God.  I haven't re-married, but that is a personal choice; not one that will be foisted upon me by another human irrespective of their title in the church.

I hope this doesn't sound too "bitter" as I still love these brothers and others who I worship with.  Understanding that many leaders are ill-equipped to handle a situation like this is crucial.  That doesn't make them bad church leaders, it just says that they really ought to avoid giving advice on these kind of issues.

Interestingly, after my divorce, I came into contact with two other brothers here in MN who had the same thing going on.  My experience was much more practical to share with them than a few scriptures from God's word.

Hey there

I have been through divorce and has come out the other side. Like Tammyt My first husband was unfaithful and he

handed me papers for divorce Like the scripture say if the unbeliever wants to go then we are to let them go. When this happened there was again like BobVelez the old school that you don't divorce and as such there was no advice as to how to counsel me during this time. My Ex was a disciple once and fell away but I was still faithful to Christ and I realized that it was just me and the Bible. When he was slandering me in court and telling our son lies about me,I kept praying that God would expose the truth whichever way that would work. If I was in sin then I wanted it to show and if he was in sin I wanted that to be revieled as well. I stayed in the same state as he so he could have visitation with his son and I spent 8 months in a homeless shelter for single moms and soon to be single moms. There was a disciple who worked there and He and his wife really kept my spirits up during that time. after that time I was able to move out on my own and start all over again. God has graciously given me a spiritial man for a husband. There is no mistrust in this relationship and God does rebuild families. There are times when divorce is wrong in my opinion and I was close to a sister who deceided to divorce her husband without giving him a chance to repent or letting him know what he did wrong but she was in adultry with a coworker and the group have severed ties with this woman. It isn't something done lightly or for your own comfort tha divorce is done. this woman had 3 children and the family is now split up. My son is friends with 2 of the 3 sons and he has been trying to help where he can. I have also been able to help my Ex as he is going through his 3rd divorce and I can see why it says God hates divorce. It just devestates all who are involved. it took me 10 yrs to get married again but I used the time to find out who I was before God and who I wanted to see looking back from the mirror.Stay Faithful and Keep remembering you are loved before God above all else.    

Hello everyone

I am not married, but I would like to know as disciples when did DIVORCE become an option?    I have been a faithful disciple for over five years and have not sacrified and prayed to one day get married and then divorced. Unfortunatley I have seen many divorces in the church in these past years. This is really scary, I realize each relationship is different.  Many times the signs are there and sometimes they are cleverly disguised.  The bottom line is we choose to ignore these problems long before we walk down the aisle.  The old saying, "love is blind", rings true.  I refuse to be part of the "married and miserable" ministry.  I will continue to wait on GOD to make it perfectly clear who I should spend the rest of my life with.  We and I am including sisters and brothers in this we, WE need to stop settling, like the speaker said to the women at the ISC in Dallas, set your sights on higher things, stay close to GOD and out of the "bargain basement".  We also need to be more realistic when it comes to counting the costs, its not enough to say "oh I will love him or her no matter what".  Truly count the costs and have people in your life who will tell you the truth and be open and honest and not just tell you what your "itchy ears" want to hear.  I pray this helps...love and blessings always

Jen

Jen,

I, too, never considered divorce an option while I was married.  I would caution you in making such a statement especially in a thread with those of us that have had to go through it.

No one who marrys plans on getting divorced; especially disciples.  However, please understand that as humans, we are not perfect.

I'm guessing that you are a bit younger than me, so I won't take offense to your "WE need to stop settling" remark.  Don't fall into the trap that many of our leaders (and former leaders) have fallen into.  Every situation is unique and deserves a lot of attention paid to it.  To simply consider a life situation and then look through your concordance to find the answer to the problem is unwise at best and supremely harmful at worst.

Bob Velez

Sorry but I don't consider GOD's word as a trap to do what is right, I follow the scriptures, not man's advice.

Thank you for your response and God bless.

Jen

This reply is to Jen,

I do take offense to your comments. No one goes into a marriage with the expectation that divorce is in the future. It is very critical and judgmental for you to put yourself higher then those who have gotten a divorce. You should listen to man. God has put men on this earth to share his wisdom. God loves me no matter what. It is very unfortuanate that you have a attitude you do. You may be missing out on something the God has planned for you. How dare you suggest that I settled. I did not settle and I am glad I got married and I am more glad I am divorced. And I wouldn't have my kids and no one is going to make me or my kids feel any less then valued.  God took me out of an abusive marriage and am darn glad i have my kids. Obviously, you have not experienced life. Because people who are divorced should be  valued as anyone who hasn't been married. And, no marriage is perfect, you will be waiting a long time if you are going towait for perfection. Marriage is a commitment to God, family and the church. A person can make someone stay and you can't make them love you. Yes, divorce is an option but it doesn't mean it should be the first one. I hope you pray and get some discipling on this issue because you need it.

Christina

Hello Bob,

I wouldl ike to hear your story. I know you had mentioned to talk to you privatly I am not sure how to do that. My personal email is cwdriver71@hotmail.com.  Tammy, I wouldn't mind if you wanted to chat  also.

thanks,

christina

Hi everyone!

I encourage you to study I Corinthians 7 carefully, deeper and detail. I find that those who want to stay single or married or divorce have to have purpose in Him (Godly purpose). Those who want to stay single have to consider whether his choice or decision will make him/ her more spiritual and more optimal in serving God. If not he/ she has to be married. Also those who want to be married have to consider the same thing/ way. But those who want to divorce, he/ she has to has goodwill to save his wife/ her husband.

God bless!

Note: I write about these all in my upcoming book. Please pray for me to be able to execute that. Thank you.

I hope that all who contribute to the discussion can be respectful and mindful of each other.

Jen, I never said that God's word was a "trap".  I think that humans can fall INTO a trap using ancient texts to answer EVERY question that exists in the contemporary world.

I am currently taking a class at a state university here in Minnesota on the Hebrew Bible.  The instructor is a PhD in biblical studies, a college professor, and an ordained Episcopal priest.  He said that before people can serve as clergy in the Episcopal faith, they MUST first get a lot of schooling in Bible scholarship.  I know that other faith communities require leaders to undergo training in counseling and other socially constructed situations.

What I am trying to get across here is that as a brotherhood of churches, we have suffered many things because our leaders were ill-equipped to serve their memberships.  AGAIN, let me reiterate, I am not faulting the Bible or saying that these people are 'bad'.

If we are to say that because the Bible says "God hates divorce" we must never get divorced lest we be condemned for eternity, then we have to take all the other laws and rules into consideration as well.  We mustn't wear clothes that have two interwoven fabrics, we have to stone our children if they are disrespectful, we must send women who are menstruating "outside our camp" for the 7 days that they are "unclean", etc, etc.  You get the picture, right?

Again, the Bible is the beginning of wisdom.  It is not intended to be a rule book or a checklist.

Brother,

What makes you assume that those of us contributing to this thread have NOT studied that scripture?

"have to consider . . .", "has to be married . . .", "has to . . ."

This is more of the same "rule book" mentality.  Jesus challenged the Pharisees who were accustomed to using scripture as a rule book.  Why should we not challenge modern-day Pharisees who do the same thing?

Consider WHY Jesus said the things he did; especially when he seemingly contradicted the practice of the Law in the Torah.

Jen,

I'm sorry if you felt like I attacked you in my post.  That certainly wasn't my intention.

None of us know each other's experiences and as individual sentient beings, we are the sum total of those experiences.  I think I reacted to your admonishment to not "settle" because it felt as if you were assuming some things about the situations that each of us have faced.

Our experiences in the church are different as well.  If you've been a member for only 5 years (not to discount your personal journey, of course; 5 years as a disciple is something to celebrate!), you likely were not exposed to much of the dysfunction that existed in our churches prior to the Kriete Revolution™ (I just coined that phrase!  LOL!!!!).

I am all for allowing sparks to fly in discussion of sensitive issues as long as we acknowledge that our experiences won't all be the same, our decisions will likely differ, yet we can all be one in Christ and needn't challenge each other's depth of conviction.  Doing so on such a forum as this is dangerous and has the ability to divide us.  We know that's what Satan wants, so let's not be quick to make assumptions.

Hey Stephen, I appreciate your input. Very clean.

Tell me how to get the spaces between your pp? Ok back to the point

Rom 12:18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace w/ everyone.

These 'discussions' can be a great tool. My prayer is that when we jump in 'hot waters' that we pray first.

Some topics such as this one have a bit higher temp of emotion and tension.

We should above all else - love each other. Bob, I love you as my brother, and hopefully as we get to know each other better, a closer friend and brother. There are some things you have put forth that may have come across in a way that you did not intend. If what you have posted here is exactly as you intended, then please be open to the advice and counsel of many advisors. I am just a regular Joe Blo Disciple. I don't carry any additional title such as 'totally sold out disciple' or 'family group leader' or anything of that sort. I was baptized in 1994. So please hear me as a peer.

It SEEMS like what you are in essence saying is that the Bible is Not The Standard For Your Living.

DT 32:47 GOD's Word should Be Your Life. I have all these Scriptures coming to mind that what I would end up w/ is basically a WORD of GOD study w/ about 20 Scriptures. That's not what I want to do.

But that is in a round a bout way, that is basically the Point.

If you meet someone and study the Bible w/ him Today, are you going to be making a disciple of Jesus?

Contemporary issues today are the same contemporary issues that have always been here. Racism, Divorce, Sexual Immorality, Drunkeness, even Abortions - Conservative vs. Liberal. You can find all these issues today were equally contempary 'back in the day'

On some issues the Bible is not cut and dry. On many it is. Divorce is one of them. Jesus didn't say no one could under no circumstances get a divorce otherwise.... But we all (as his learners) know what he did say. Jesus gave us one exception for divorce. Paul (an Apostle) extends it ever so slightly to those who by following Christ have lost their spouses - that they are no longer bound to their spouse. Today (as always) people's point of view has shifted from God says.. to Did God really say...?

Again, you may not have intended to come across this way, so if you feel I need to apologize for anything please let me know.

Feel free to go to my profile and 'send me a letter'.

In unity w/ love, Byron

 I just hit "enter."

And Byron, I agree with you. The Bible should always be our standard. Yes, everything in it needs to be understood in the context in which it was written, but some things are very cut and dried.

God *does* hate divorce. That being said, I know many great disciples who have gone through divorces because their spouses left God and then abandoned them. Many of them ended up getting re-married and are doing great. None of them wanted to be divorced.

No one should discourage Jen from her dream of being in a loving, godly marriage. There still are many great marriages in the church. No marriage is perfect (because no people are) and all have their trials; but it is possible to work through the trials and come out better in the end -- if we stay faithful and submit ourselves to the input of righteous counselors and focus on repenting of our own sins first. 

No apologies are necessary, Byron.  One of the drawbacks of this form of communication is that we are unable to know each other's thoughts, prayers, and convictions.

The Bible is certainly the standard I was converted into.  However, much like some teachings from the pulpit are extrapolated FROM the Bible's text, I believe that we must be wise in all decisions of such magnitude as divorce, marriage, etc.

I would never knowingly and purposefully do something that I know God hates without wrestling with the decision.  However, I would also never advise someone STRICTLY on what it says in the Bible.  In other words, I would never assume that someone dealing with divorce as a disciple has not struggled themselves with the issue and their faith and simply refer them to a scripture as an answer to the complex issue.

I would argue that divorce is NOT a cut and dry issue.  Challenges in marriage come and go.  Disciples are tested and tempered by fire.  Looking for a solution using ONLY the Bible is detrimental.  I agree that "many counselors makes victory sure" and believe me, I sought out MUCH advice before making a decision.  However, the steps I took and the wrestling I went through and the pain I endured cannot be known to all who hear the question "What about disciples and divorce?"

I would never encourage anyone to get a divorce when a marriage hits the rocks.  There are many tools available for the disciple to use to deal with marriage issues.  However, at several points in life, we had been asked "have you prayed about it enough, bro?" by those seeking to offer advice.  This is not advice.  It is, in my opinion, a dodge of the issue.

In addition, many people have experienced the fabricated relationships in the church (prior to 2003) and leaned on them for serious life questions in the past to be shipwrecked by bad advice.

I would argue that MOST of the Bible is not cut and dry.  All the answers are NOT there for how to live in contemporary society.  It is a guidebook and it is all we have from our God to give us insight to His heart and desire for our lives.

Treating every issue that faces us as a salvation issue is wrong thinking, in my opinion.  I agree with StephenH: divorce is absolutely the last resort.  What I am trying to get across is that if someone finds themselves facing that last resort, they do not have to have the additional burden of thinking that they have fallen from grace if they decide to take that last resort.

I certainly never intended to dissuade anyone from having the highest expectations for marriage.  Indeed, that is likely the reason I have not gotten re-married as of yet, nor am I sure I will ever re-marry.  My expectations ARE high.  :-)

Brother and Sisters please don’t give Satan a foothold and allowing him to get our emotions in a twist…. Yes we have different views and different opinions about everything, that’s what makes us unique.  When God created this world, he made things different for a reason, different animals, different trees, different fruit… everything had a purpose… As so do we.   Let us pray for each other in our weakness and strengths… for those who are divorced, then use that to help others not to make the same mistake.

God puts us in situations so that he can prune and strengthen us for his purpose, let’s not forget that.  We have to learn to agree to disagree; no one will have the same convictions. 

Let’s be mature adults and help the younger generations to grow in God’s love and mercy.  We have too many lost sheeps in the world who wish they had the strength that we have; who wish they had the love that God has given us…. Please let’s help others with our situation not with our problems.

God’s word is living and active, sharper than any double edge sword not ancient text.  This is the same text along with our faith that got us thought many of the situations that we’ve put ourselves into....

For any young or weak Christian, who want to get out of a relationship just because… then we need to help them through that using the scripture.  Sometimes the result maybe separation or divorce; however you must let them know that they have to make every effort in doing what is right. 

Let’s remember that we all said that JESUS IS LORD when we got baptized.

StephenH: Indeed, you are correct; my blanket statement about discipling relationships prior to 2003 was ill-founded.  I must retract that statement as not all discipling relationships prior to 2003 should be broadly characterized as "fabricated".

I would not use the Bible to encourage anyone to begin divorce proceedings in any situation.  However, I would never tell someone seeking input or advice that divorce is prohibited UNLESS those situations of adultery or abandonment exist.

Neither would I justify a polygamist using scriptural examples that being married to more than one spouse is ok.

Neither would I advise a disciple in an abusive relationship to endure it because "divorce is not an option".

I guess what I am trying to communicate is that over-simplifying very complex life choices by looking for where the Bible "allows" the disciple to do something (or not do something) is using the Bible as too much of a "rule book".  I respect any disciple who continues to hold to their convictions about divorce or any other contemporary life situation.

A divorce, the death of a child or other loved one, financial ruin, and other significant life issues are life-changing events that must be attended to with thought, prayer, meditation, advice AND the scriptures.  I've already espoused my belief that utilizing the services of a counselor or mental health professional is also a good idea IF someone feels they might benefit from it.

Dear Bob Velez,

It seems that you have problems with rules and check list. Do you have any bad experiences or bitterness with that? Actually the main mistakes of Pharisees are their hypocrisy and misinterpretation to the word of God. They interprated The Old Testament so extreme and make rules and check lists such as: calculating 10% salts, sugars, everything in their kitchen to offer their contribution to God, counted how many kg are unallowed to bring on Sabath, etc.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:20: "I tell you, then, that you will be able to enter the Kingdom of heaven only if you are more faithful than the teachers of the Law and the Pharisees in doing what God requires."

So long our rules and check lists are in God's will and purposes we do correct thing. Dont you live with rules in your country, in church, in many places in your life brother? We need to have rules in our life. Even Paul had and did rules to disciple who did not want to repent and did bad or dangerous influences. How can we live without rules? Eventhough we dont like it, we need it.

I am not happy to see that other disciples are going through or have gone through a similar experience to the one that I am going through, but it is comforting to know that I am not alone.  I am a new disciple, baptized on June 1, 08.  I am presently separated from my husband of two years.  He abandoned me in November of 07, and has given me absolutely no reason to believe that he is interested in being in a "Godly marriage" with me.  What I've been through with him is a very puzzling situation, and saddens me deeply.  In the early months of our marriage, after our 1st disagreement, he said he "doesn't like problems", and if there were going to be problems, he would "take his things and go".  Each and every time we had a disagreement, he would repeat those words, and did leave temporarily several times.  Of course, as a worldly person at that time, I didn't react to the situation in a Godly way.  Things got worse and worse, and last November, after discussing it with my husband, I went to Philadelphia to stay with my son temporarily.  My husband's and my plan was to put some distance between the two of us temporarily.  We gave up our apartment in Connecticut, and took our belongings to Philadelphia to put in storage there.  It was our plan to both save $$ during that time, and after a couple of months, we would reconcile and get a place toether in Philly.  He is Muslim, and a Malian (African) immigrant, and there is a large network of Malian people in Philly, so he was happy to plan to relocate there.  After getting to Philly, I started attending the Greater Philadelphia Church of Christ, at the suggestion of my daughter, who is a disciple here in CT. 

The living situation with my son didn't work out (for reasons I won't get into here), and it became necessary for me to return to Connecticut.  My husband completely turned on me during that conversation and abandoned our marriage at that time.  I've seen him only 4 or 5 times since that conversation, and 3 of those times involved tax filing, tax refunds and tax rebates.  He has not provided me with his address.  He doesn't support me financially in any way.  During the rare conversations that we have he brings up my shortcomings and insults me.  He refuses to discuss a reconciliation.

I have prayed long and hard about this, I've read many scriptures over and over, and have talked with my church leader, as well as several "sisters".  I consulted with one of the elders in my area.  After all this, I feel I have made every effort I can to reconcile, and have decided to file for divorce. 

Instead of beging depressed about this whole situation, I have peace.  I thank God that through it all, I have come to know Jesus, and am a sinner saved by grace.  Anger and unforgiveness for my husband has been replaced by forgiveness and prayer for his salvation.  I pray that he will open his heart to God, and get to experience the love and forgiveness that I experience every day.  I pray that one day he will take the time to get to know the new me, and know that the woman he married isn't who I am today.  I pray that God will shine through me during any contact that I have with him.

Thanks for letting me share........let's keep each other in our prayers.

I want to lift you up for your heart to forgive and your desire to see you husband saved. This is so important. If you are still open to more advice, I would like to share just a couple of things. 1. If your husband has been unfaithful then I feel your pain and genuinely wish you the best and will be praying for you. You can take comfort that you are not alone and when this is over you will be able to also comfort others. 2. but...If you filed for divorce and he hasn't been unfaithful and the divorce isn't finalized then it is not too late to w/draw the divorce...If he divorces you then fine...but if not then it is ok to be separated as long as you either reconcile later or if that never happens then to remain unmarried. This is probably the same advice you've already heard but if not - then there it is.

In unity w/ love, Byron

Thank you for opeing your heart and the anguish you have been going through. I will keep you in our prayers and hope that God clears a path for you. Divorce is hard for anyone. Whether or not you get divorced remember that God loves you and he will use you to be his voice inthe future, be open to what he wants you to see.

Thanks to those of you who responded to my post, and for your prayers for my husband and myself.  I will continue praying for you as well. 

LuAnne,

Thank you for sharing your story.  Ultimately, we know that God works for the good in ALL things irrespective of our mistakes and choices.

Naek: I don't have a problem with rules.  As a parent, I understand the need for them quite intimately. 

Byron: The way you framed the advice for our sister LuAnne is indicative of my main objection to using the Bible as a rulebook.  It appears (correct me if I'm wrong here) that you are suggesting if her pending divorce is due to infidelity (not sure if you are using the ". . . or abandonment" argument as well) then that's fine, but if not then she "can" (or did you mean "should") withdraw from the proceedings.  If that was your intent, then it speaks to the core of the issue that I've raised in this thread.

I think this approach is problematic for a number of reasons not the least of which is that every situation is different.  The last thing I would want a brother or sister to hear from another disciple is that they will be sinning if they make a choice that goes against a particular scripture irrespective of the larger context.

In Paul's 2nd letter to Timothy, as we all have heard in the 'Word' study and elsewhere, he tells Timothy that all scripture is 'God-breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting . . ." etc.  However, was Paul talking about the Gospels?  Not likely since I don't think they were written yet (unless my understanding is wrong, which it may be).  Indeed, would Paul suggest that his letters were scripture?

My biggest concern for any disciple facing divorce is that they remain faithful and as sane as possible.  The church should wrap their arms around the disciple rather than trying to figure out if the choice they made is "ok" or not.  They are already suffering.  They ought not be shunned or thought to be "in sin" simply because they are having to face the circumstances they face.

Brother Bob Velez,

I admire Pharisees for their certain qualities. Especially their ZEAL and DISCIPLINE. I found many Christian today not that zeal and discipline but even lazy and so weak will. I mentioned in my previous post "have to" instead of "must" because we are not pushed by man but the potential of adulteries that waiting in "front of the door" for certain singles who unable to resist.

Be anticipate brother for being offensive and too many talks. It results many wrongs (read Proverb).

By the way, why we talk too much about opinions when we have final answer in the BIBLE? I prefer to dig deeper the BIBLE rather than opinions. God bless!

YBIC,

Naek

Brother Bob Velez,

You are playing words. You try to separate rules and loves (intimacy). That is actually connected. When there is a rule, there is a choice (free will). When there is a choice (free will) then people able/ can love God.

Dont you study about Adam and Eve. They have rule in the garden. They have choice to obey or disobey God. To believe or not to believe in God. To love or not to love God.

YBIC,

Naek

Matthew 19:9
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

1 Corinthians 7:10-11
10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

OK. Using the bible as our standard, holding to Jesus' teachings to be his disciples, listening to those who Jesus sent, and showing God our love for him by our obedience....

Luke 10:16
"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Lk 14:23-24 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

To reference what I posted before, if there has not been unfaithfulness then the disciple of Jesus does not initiate divorce. It is ok to separate (like my wife did from me in 2004 for 6 months) but if you do then you have TWO OPTIONS. Remain Unmarried or Reconcile.

If your unbelieving spouse divorces you then you are no longer bound.

I was abusive (although I didn't think I was) and Rebeccah separated from me in 2004. One of the 5 things I had to do for us to reconcile was to 'seek professional help'. I did and was diagnosed Bi-Polar. I am on meds and go to 'therapy' twice a month. She said I was abusive. I didn't think I was since I never hit her. I later learned that I 'mentally abusing' her. We are doing great by the way, we are the closest we've been now since we've been married.

If your marriage is at the point where you are considering divorce, two doors are before you. You have to choose.

DOOR #1 - Obedience, Love, Trust, Suffering (1Pet 2:20-21), Humility, Surrender, Peace.

DOOR #2 - Pride, Rebellion, Hate, Lean on your own understanding, Choose the precepts of the world instead of the precepts of our Lord, Trouble.

I would choose door #1, but that's just me.

In unity w/ love, Byron

To answer the question you posed in red text: Because the Bible is the beginning of wisdom, not the end.  

Not sure about your remark about "being offensive", bro.  I can see that English is not your first language, so I'm guessing its a transposition disconnect there.

Please, brother . . . PLEASE consider the audience and context of the instructions given.  As I have previously mentioned, taking the words at face value is fine, but fails to look at the larger picture.

We don't take the book of Revelations at face value because of exigent study of the writing style and the audience for whom the letter was intended.  We don't establish doctrines of following the law in the Hebrew Bible because of the context within which the law was given.  We have, time and time again, heard sermons that extrapolate messages regarding finances, worship, and other things that use scripture as a basis and then construct a message for use in contemporary society.

What makes divorce different?

When Jesus told the rich young ruler that he ought to sell all his possessions and follow him, we acknowledge that this wasn't an instruction for ALL disciples (especially since many of them already HAD nothing), but was a message that was tailored for the individual.  What makes Mt 19 different?

Oh, and your "door" analogy?  Classic McKean-ism, in my opinion.  Forgive my strident comparison, but it is placing these kinds of choices in front of good hearted disciples that are struggling through life's many difficult decisions that injured our fellowship over time and resulted in the 2003 implosion.

Nothing is intended as a personal attack on you, Byron.  I hope we can continue to have dialogue on this and/or other matters.

In Brotherly Love,

Bob

Hello everyone!!

I am a recently divorced mother of two. I am divorced becasue he was "unhappy" and he did not want to be unhappy for the rest of his life, he states. We had been married for almost 14 years and in the church for almost 11. others had to tried to talk to him and let him know that divorce was not an option because I had not cheated but that did not change anyyhing he still went thru with it and he is no longer in the church. It has been very hard to deal with. Then reading all the post....no one knows how it is unless they have went thru it.

To Daddo2, all I can say is stay close to God and other spiritual ones that can help you thru this difficult time. Talk about it do not hold it in. Know that God is allowing this to happen for a reason and that it is all going to be ok. God will not put no more on us than we can handle. It sometimes may seem like God I cant handle anymore but he KNOWS how much we can bear we only THINK we know how much.  There is a brighter light at the end of the tunnel, don't turn back keep moving forward. If you would like to talk more just let me know. It is good to talk to someone that has been thru it. I can say that i have learned alot from my situation and I know God is going to take care of me.

Much Love,

DCrump

Ok Brother Bob Velez. Thank you for responding to my post. Doesnt matter who win or lose. Because we are BROTHERS IN CHRIST (It a title of song we produce. See my profile - Music Gallery)

Love in Christ,

Naek

My ex and I were both baptized in 93' on the same day, in which I got to baptize her after getting baptized and we were married in 94'.  We separated in Jan 2006 after learning 3 days before my 12 anniversary that my wife was unfaithful.  The only reason I divorced my wife is because this was the second time it happened.  I forgave her in 98' and we worked through issues and had many people in our lives to help.  She repented for a time.  If this behavior is a lifestyle, the scriptures grant the option to divorce- only if the spouse if unfaithful.  The husband can actually forgive the spouse and try to work things out if he chooses, but this was a lifestyle, thus opening the door for me to divorce.  Now don't get me wrong, I signed on to go to the grave with this woman, not to end things after a few years.  Truth is, you have to work hard at a marriage, both parties.  If one decides to do their own things for some reason, you're going to crash.  This was the most painful time of my life.  I was depressed for 3 months, but God brought me through with the help of a loving church that gave me all the support I needed.  My divorce was granted in May 2007, and I am happy to say that God has allowed me to date again on the 7th of June of this year.  The last 2 and a half years were trying, but God does answer prayer.  It may not be when we want it, but he does.  I was so down in 2007, I completely forgot that I prayed to God for a relationship and change in 2008.  Man! God surely doesn't forget.  And may I say,  the sister that I am dating is the most perfect, beautiful, spiritual,  God fearing person for me!  I am amazed everyday how we meeting came to be.  God is Awesome!!! -CB

Thank you so much for your wisdom and encouragement. I sometimes just do not know where people are coming from. I know I don't like email because people can take things out of context or read into things. It is ok to be legalistic but it is good to have a balance of both otherwise we may just be like the world. Unfortantly, there are alot of things disciples do that is just as bad if not worse then that of people in the world. You are right we did say Jesus is Lord when we got baptized. Thank you for your input.

I'm very grateful that this is a topic that we can speak about.  Sadly this is affecting many many people in the world.  I believe that if you or someone you know is going through this, they are very lucky to have a disciple help them heal.  This may be an area were God can use our mistakes to show those who have also made this kind mistake that they are not untouchable.  But love by God.  I hated going through my divorce, but since then I have been there to help many others who are struggling with the aftermath of a divorce.  It's my understanding that when I got baptize that God did just cover the sins I committed before...it also covers what is yet to come.  Our calling is to strive daily to love the way God loved the untouchables.  

Thank you to everyone who has spoken their mind. I have learned so much and can't wait to share more with you.

With all my love and your sister in Christ,

Amy 

You're right. When my adulterous first wife filed for divorce, I did not have a choice either.

In unity w/ love, Byron

Indeed . . .

For many years the only way that the church could reconcile itself with a divorce that occurred among members was to basically state that one of the individuals "left God".  I don't believe this to be accurate.

I hope this question comes out correctly! Since we are divorced I have a question. Since we are disciples does anyone feel different about dating or going on dates? For example the wise rules" you go with another couple or group" which is not biblical. I sometimes get confused because brothers are all different( which is good) but either some of them won't step foot in your house if no one else is home etc. etc.

I guess I just think differently because I am older and its not like anything will happen. I think it really makes friendships fake. At least that is how I have been feeling or giving people side hugs, Just a thought. Hope it makes sense

          Well, I started this thread and I guess it's my time to pipe in.I wanted to hear from others that have gone through what may be their greatest spiritual challenge ever. Some have encouraged me. Some are very bitter still. But I appreciate everyone's input. I don't want to go into much detail about the circumstances of my divorce because I still hope my wife will come back to God and I feel it's important that, despite the circumstances, I protect her feelings.

           So, what does God say about divorce? It's simple really. He says no. Remember you stood before God and made a vow to love eachother " for better or for worse". Unfortunatly for some, including myself,it has been mostly worse. Do we, as disciples,go back on our vows? Absolutely not. In the case of infidelity I believe God allows you to divorce your spouse. I don't think this is God's first choice though. I think he wants us to forgive, even this. [ by the measure we forgive others, we also are forgiven ] I know that some have been hurt and it has left you bitter beyond healing. I think God felt it's better, in these cases of unfaithfulness, for a couple to divorce rather than have bitterness kill you both spiritually. The one who does not repent of their adultry is already spiritually dead.

            As for me, I would never file for divorce, no matter what my wife did to me because I know how much it cost to forgive my sin.One of my brothers said to me "let that be her sin"...and it is.... But I pray constantly that God keeps my heart soft and bitterness far from me....and he has. And if she repents, there is love and forgiveness with God and with her husband too. I will continue to pray for her long after the papers are signed and hope of reconciliation is long gone. I will never give up the hope that we may one day see eachother in heaven. May this hope be in you as well.

                                                                                                                                  Your Brother in Christ,

                                                                                                                                                     Fred.

Fred

I just read your most recent post.  All I can say is thank God for your amazing and loving heart.  We can all take a lesson from you in being more like Jesus by having a forgiving heart.  A sister and I were watching Joyce Myers this morning, she preached on "pride and humility".  She said humility is not about being weak, its about being meek.  After reading many of the posts in this forum I see both bitterness and pride are holding back many of our brothers and sisters from moving on with their lives "spiritually".  If one chooses to stay in a marriage rather than opt for divorce then do so with a Jesus like attitude and heart.  I don't think its fair to allow someone elses sin to cause you to sin.  TD Jakes has said many times, we need to just "let go and let God".  Allow God to work in our lives, allow HIM to work on those character flaws and allow the fruits of the spirit to truly penetrate our hearts. 

Take care and yes, I will keep you and your wife in my prayers.

God bless....YSIC

Jen

Once when I was single, I went to a married brother's house and he wasn't there but his wife was. She opened the door and asked me to wait outside until her husband got home. I felt a little weird about it - like maybe she didn't trust me - but I respected her for it. The other day I told Casey that I was going to work and if Nick wasn't here then he needed to leave (and I explained why). Casey is 18 and is my 17 yr old Nick's best friend since they were four.

Casey is like family but is a young man now and I DO TRUST my wife COMPLETELY. Trust is not the issue. The bible says let there not be a hint of sexual immorality. Our neighbors see me go to work and a young being at my home w/ my wife when I am not there. That is a hint. I know that Sexual immorality would not take place, but the hint would be, and that is why I asked Casey to leave. I asked him how he felt about it. He said he understood that I trust them but I don't trust what my neighbors might think.

There were a couple of times when I was single that I went on a date that was just me and Rebeccah (now my wife). But that was not the norm. We didn't 'not go' on a date just because we didn't have a double, but we had set up our doubles and they fell through. We prayed before our date and we had a good time. Double are good though and I encourage my son to have others around when he goes on dates. It is not that I don't trust him. I do trust him. I trust that he has a sinful nature.

And lastly 'a side hug is a safe hug'.

In unity w/ love, Byron

I think it's usually a very good idea to go on double or group dates. I have even seen this advice given more and more from groups outside of our church (and not just other churches). I was in a counseling center the other day and they had a brochure on dating and it recommended going on double dates and group dates for several reasons. It is just good common sense. If a brother refuses to set foot in your house when there is no one else there, I would respect that -- not think less of him. 

Does that mean that there is never an appropriate time to be on a "single" date or that you are in sin if you are ever alone? Of course not! But it scares me when I hear someone say that something will "never happen." I can't even tell you how many times things have happened that people thought would never happen (including myself)!

In response to Christine71,

I dated and married the man God had finally intended me to be with. I do not regret marring my first husband

as we are now friends and I have a wonderful son from that relationship. I dated in double dates and with another

spiritual person with me. I was never alone with my future husband. We didn't hold hands till we were going  "steady"

and our first kiss was on our wedding day.  It is a personal thing to when you do what but as someone else put on this

message board there must not be even a hint of immorality which is what Kyle and I lived by during the dating years.

We dated for about 2 years,went steady for almost 1 year,and was married in 4 months. We wanted to form a great healthy relationship and to be sure that we were completeing each other. If one or the other was holding each other back

spiritually we would not have married. I also didn't really date much until I used about 12 years to find out who I was before God. After getting divorced I felt destitute and unloveable. I needed to see God and remember how much He loved and still loves me.  That all takes time but I am stronger spiritually because of it and I would counsel someone who is newly divorced to take some time to heal your heart and soul before going into a relationship to head to marraige.

That is only my opinion and not by any means scriptually based.  I have learned that I love my husband,Kyle, with almost all my heart and would walk through fire to save him. I have learned to trust him and God completely. I wouldn't have learned that if I hadn't learned about me.

In Christ

Heidi 

I'm just going to throw my story out there, hopefully it helps, God has done some amazing things to get me through this.

I was baptized in Phoenix in 1987.  My ex-wife and I were married in the church, after  meeting shortly after my baptism, and starting to date in the church (going through the whole, you can date onece a month, ok now twice a month, ok now you can go steady...) Anyways, We got married in October of 1898. Things were great the first several years, but then we moved to St. Paul.There, things started their not so slow progression downhill. I reallt started struggling spiritually, and it was really taking a toll on our relationship. In 92, we moved to Las Vegas, but things only got better a short time.  I was away from the church twice during those years, because of my own stubbornness and hard heartedness.  I always knew where the truth was, but was unwilling to face my own sinfullness and pride. After moving to Missoula in 2006, I was humbled, and returned to Church, being restored in November of 2006.  That was about the time my ex-wife decided she was to unhappy to remain married, and told me to move out.  I did, but was doing everything I could to reconcile the marriage. Unfortunately, she had decided their was another brother that would make her happy instead, so she filed for divorec, and it was finalized on June 14th of 2007.  I was pretty nieve through the whole experience.  I didn't fight her during the divorce, gave in to all her demands, believing that after a time we could reconcile still, after she saw the changes God was making in my life.  Well, 2 weeks after the divorce was finalized, after she had been asked to not come back until she was ready to work through her sin, and consider what had happened, the brother she had developed an interest in (who went through my restoration studies, and discipled me when I was first restored) left the church to pursue a relationship with her. They were married in August of 2007, 2 months after the divorce.  It was one of the most devistating things I have ever faced, and my faith almost wasn't enough. But God did lift me out of the dispair, and has done a tremendous amount of healing in my life.  The thing I have learned most from all of this, is forgiveness is the key to any healing!  We even are to the point where several weeks ago as we met to trade the children (We have shared custody of myson, who is 13, and my daughter who is 11), she asked me to pray for their relationship, and I didn't even have to think twice doing that for her.  My biggest concern is that at some point, she can realize what this has cost the both of us, and turn back to God for the forgiveness that He wishes her to have.  Since then, I have become the co-leader of the singles here in Missoula, and 2 weeks ago, began a new relationship with a sister that is one of the most incredible women I have ever met.  Believe me, I have put a ton of reading, prayer, fasting and advice seeking into this, because the last thing I want to do is hurt anyone by starting a relationship that couldn't have the chance of progressing.

Anyways, that is my story, and again, for those going through it (I really felt blind-sided by the whole thing, because it came at a time I felt that things had gotten so much better in our relationship), that biggest thing I can say, is learn to forgive! Study out forgiveness, and seek God's help, because the bitterness that can grow out of this can destroy.

Love,

You Brother In Christ,

Paul

CB & Fred,

I say Amen! That is so right. I appreciate both your stories, remembering God's grace, and forgiveness for us, allowing us to get past bitterness and truly grow more Christlike in our ability to show grace and forgiveness, are to me the biggest keys to coming out of this experience stronger.  I remember a week after our court date, when the divorce was finalized, my daughter had spent the night at one of her best friends house. The next day when I went to pick her up, her friends mother was outside watering the lawn. She and her Husband were two of the disciples that had been counseling my ex-wife and I, and they are now discipling my Girlfriend and I in our dating relationship. Anyways, I stood outside for a few minutes talking with her about ways that I could still show my Ex-wife how much she ment to me, and even possibly to get her to the point where she could consider reconciling and someday remarriage.  I remember how I was not even willing to consider the thought that she was already in a relationship with another man. Of course, my whole world continued to crash as she not only started openly dating him, but married him very quickly after the divorce.  I think the hardest part for me was getting past the self blame for everything, and realizing that, while I was not the ideal husband, and had a lot of faults that contributed to the ending of the marriage, it was not my choosing, and that her pursuing the divorce, and of entering into a scriptually adulterous marriage, was her choice, and her sin, and as I allowed God to challenge and change my heart, the healing and eventual blessings flowed.  I have to be amazed at the parallel I feel with your story CB at this point.  The Sister I am dating now is so unbelievably amazing, and more compatible than anyone I've ever known. I started dating again finally last February, more out of a feeling of responsibility to serve than out of any desire for a relationship. I was to start leading a singles Bible Talk, and to try and rebuild a singles ministry that had been devestated by people turning away (Dating only in the kingdom became too hard a teaching for some.) I felt that I could not effectively lead singles, if I wasn't willing to date, and certainly would not be able to lead brothers who were dating without setti9ng examples myself.  Anyways, we went on several 6 dates over the last several months, but also wound up working closely together as she was a strong part of the core group that was rebuilding our singles ministry, and also developing a deep trust in her with the kids as she co-leads the preteen ministry here. We built such a deep friendship, and two weeks ago, started going steady.

Now, as far as dating as a divorcee, I have a couple of observations. I will not be alone with her in her or my apartment either, I would not even enter the door.  I will be "alone" in a public place, like getting coffee, or sitting in a public park talking (of course, I would not myself do that unless it is broad daylight either, but that is just my conviction on that.)  Almost all of our dates are doubles or group dates, and will stay that way. In my thinking, Romans 14 really applies to a lot of this, as some aspects of dating could fall into the "disputable matters".  Not a hint of immorality is a big one, but also, what is your personal purity level. Stay far away from that line. But likewise, don't judge somone who may have stronger faith, if they do something on a date that would make you struggle. An example is, one brother may struggle driving somewhere with a sister alone in his car, and another may have absolutely no struggle with that (I would however strongly urge against sitting in a parked car for any reason, as that would, to me, infer that there could be that "Hint", so I'm talking about actually driving.) I have on occasion, picked up sisters who have needed rides, taking them straight there, and dropped them off, and I would do that for any of the sisters who doesn't have transportation, not just my Girlfriend.

Anyways, my other observation is this, Slow!!!! I found it very hard at times, as we started to build the friendship, but before we were "dating" not to feel to much at times. I realized, that having been married for 17 years, I was used to having the feelings and intimiate communication with a member of the opposite sex.  It was a real challenge, after first realizing I had developed feelings for a sister, not to try to fit her into the hole left by my ex-wife. I had to even step back from the friendship a short time to sort out and come to an understanding that this was not a "replacement" but an entirely new relationship, that had to be treated the same way any "infant" relationship needs to be, with baby steps. It was a steep learning curve, that almost derailed the friendship. So, please, understand that you are not trying to replace your lost family, but if you start a relationship, remember, it is a new thing, not just picking up with what you miss. Take it slow, and don't compare it to your marriage, that is so unfair for everyone involved.

OK, so now that I've been long winded, I hope this helps anyone who took the time to read it all!! :)

Love,

You Brother in Christ,

Paul

I have raised questions about the topic being discussed by Paul in his letter to Timothy.  I'm not sure I ever said that the New Testament was uninspired and therefore non-canonical.

I do NOT believe that a divorce IN AND OF ITSELF disqualifies someone from discipleship whether it occurred before, during, or after one is baptized.  My main point is that each situation is different and cannot be ruled upon by someone outside the situation just because they have access to the Bible.

What I do think is that it is irresponsible and arrogant for someone to believe that they have the answer to everything because they have the Bible.

I must say that I am not entirely surprised at your assessment of the status of my faith.  Saddened, yes, but not surprised.

I believe that this statement is patently false.

Divorce was an accepted practice in the Old Testament.  Although there are some regulations about when it is allowed in the "Law", the scriptures don't capture the entire picture of the structure of the society that God's people lived within.  Especially considering the difference between Jew and Gentile societies.

Indeed, this particular topic is quite difficult.

I agree that no one has all the answers.  As one who went through a divorce, I can attest to the fact that wrestling with one's faith and God's word is an incredible challenge that is especially hard when our emotions are testing our endurance.

God's word is certainly authoritative.  We do, however, have to reconcile rules we find in the Bible with our experience in modern society everyday.  We are comfortable reconciling "Thou shalt not kill" with Ecclesiastes 3:3 & 8.  We are comfortable extrapolating additional meanings from the specific words used in original Greek texts; I'm specifically referring to the Gal 5:19 reference to witchcraft being taught as including drug use (if I am remembering correctly from my Sin study many moons ago).

Is it possible that areas that have in the past been avoided might be better understood if we consider the audience and the societal structures at the time the book / letter was penned?  Time and again I have listened to sermons where the preacher gives the background details to help us better understand the gravity of the message.

Look, I'm no Bible scholar.  I am currently taking an introductory course in Hebrew Bible at my school.  The professor is a PhD in Biblical studies.  Most of the course thus far is fascinating.  Understanding how the scriptures interacted with the other cultures of the time is quite interesting.  There is value in this type of study.

My convictions on this topic have been shaped over the past couple of years.  Prior to actually having to face the subject head on, I espoused the same understanding that many have: that divorce is "not an option".

I will answer Bob quoting Dave Ramsey.

Bob had said: My convictions on this topic have been shaped over the past couple of years.  Prior to actually having to face the subject head on, I espoused the same understanding that many have: that divorce is "not an option".

Financial Peace Revisited by Dave Ramsey - Chapter Eight "Dumping Debt" pg 67 (in my book)

Your view or belief system is called your paradigm. Your paradigm is your filter system. If you receive information that does not match your belief system, you filter it out ... 

Now obviously one can repent (turn your mind) and have a paradigm shift.

This is what has happened w/ you.

Bob, At one time you espoused...

(nice word choice! - since we're talking about issues here that may sway a married person to divorce or not to divorce)

the same understanding that divorce is not an option.

(well, divorce is an option if your spouse commits adultery and is also an option [but not really an option if it wasn't your choice] if your spouse divorces you)

Your paradigm has shifted - you have repented.

I don't know if it was Polycarp or Justin Martyr who said "Whoever heard of repenting from good to evil?"

Bob, my prayer for you is that you have another Paradigm Shift.

 If however, your response indicates to me that you are filtering out information that does not match your belief system, there is no reason for me to continue this discussion w/ you. I love you and hope the best for you.

Feel free to e-mail me at bdpemberton @ hotmail. com (spaces are for spam control).

In unity w/ love, Byron

Well, I'll tell you, Byron, the reason that I had that conviction was not due to personal study, but due to implications from leaders, marriage retreats, devotionals, etc.

I was forced to dig deeper into the issue when I was facing it.

If I was filtering out information that opposed my current viewpoint, I wouldn't be posting here at DTSpace, now would I?

My paradigm is not shifting back to what it once was, so while your prayers are appreciated, they really aren't necessary.  As StephenH said, God will judge in the end, won't He?

Hello All...........

There definitely has been a lot of discussion since the response to my last post.

To clarify my situation, I have not filed for divorce yet.  It is something that I have decided to do, but I am not in a place financially to pursue it at this time, due to some medical expenses caused by some fairly serious health problems.  Before becoming a disciple, it was very common for me to make quick decisions regarding my life, based on whatever emotions that I was feeling at that time, be it love, anger, happiness, sadness, rejection, depression.  Clearly, a lot of those decisions took part in my life snowballing out of control as it did.

I've got a long way to go in my walk with God, this I'm sure of.  But, I do know that I've sought God's guidance regarding my decision to divorce.  What I do know is this, in no "uncertain" terms, my husband has abandoned me.  He is my husband legally, but in NO way, shape or form, is he "being" a husband.  He is aware of my serious health problems and financial situation.  He left me during one hospitalization in the past, and during a current hospitalization made NO effort to visit me during or after it.  He's evasive about his whereabouts, verbally insults me during the sporadic conversations on the phone that we have and refuses to discuss the future of our marital situation, I will probably NEVER know if my husband has been unfaithful.  When I told him I was concerned that he might have been unfaithful, his response was "until you see it with your own eyes, you can say nothing about it".  During the time we were living together he pursued "friendships" with other women, having long conversations with them both during the day and in the middle of the night.  He put himself on a popular social "dating" site while we were still living together.  When I questioned him about the above actions, his response was "that's my private life, and it's my business, not yours". 

Affter all of the above and since my baptism, I have tried to talk to my husband on the phone to tell him that I am willing to live in a Godly marriage with him, if he is willing to do the same.  His response once was "I've got problems right now, don't bother me about this, it is not my worry." and  "do not confuse God and our marriage, one has nothing to do with the other!"  My emotional love for him has been replaced with a "Godly" love.  Because of God's love and forgiveness for me, evidenced by Him sacrificing his Son for me, I am able to love and forgive my husband.  I can, in good conscience, end the marriage and continue on with my glorious walk with my Father, and daily pray for my husband's salvation.

I've dealt with my anger, hurt and rejection from the above plus, much, much more.  I will probably never know for sure if he was adulterous.  There's no question I was "abandoned" by him.  With God's guidance, I  have learned to try not to make decisions based on my emotions.  I have looked at the facts about our marriage currently, and most important, I have sought God's will re: this decision.  I was directed towards some excerpts from the book "Evangelical Ethics" by John Jefferson Davis, specifically a chapter on Divorce and Remarriage.  It references scriptures regarding marriage, divorce and abandonment.  I have had lengthy discussions with my "one another", the leaders of my church, and sought input from one of our regional elders.  Of course, no leaders encouraged me to divorce.  What they did was encourage me to seek an answer through scripture reading and prayer, and to make sure that I have a clear conscience in whatever decision I make.  And I do..........

Respectfully, your sister in Christ

LuAnne

hi there this rusty in yucca.i got married ,then we got divorced in church.now single.

 Amy,

Thanks for this post and a big "amen" to you, sister.

I am saddened at the text I bolded . . . "Plus ca change, plus ce la meme chose"

AmyJo..........thank you for speaking out and being so honest.  I as well, say a big "AMEN!" to you.  I'm sure you are a blessing to those you reach out to. 

Your sister in Christ..............LuAnne

Hello all....

I'd like to ask anyone that's willing, to pray for me.  Within the next couple of weeks, I will be meeting with my husband for the first time in nearly 6 months.  I'm not sure what will transpire during that meeting (it was he who arranged it).  I'll be doing a lot of praying, reading and seeking God's will to prepare for this meeting.  I pray that my husband will see God in me in my words and actions.

Thank you all in advance for your prayers

Your sister in Christ............LuAnne

LuAnne,

I'll be praying for you. It is hard when your separated(or in my case ex) comes to you and says I

want to talk. In my case he asked ifI wanted to remarry him. He wasn't a disciple so my answer was clear.

It isnt easy. Please keep Gods word close to your thoughts and don't answer too quickly no matter what is asked.

Although there are veried points of views and opinons Gods word is usally clear to the person searching for the answers.

Everyone has convictions and if you see one here you don't understand then ask the person in e-mail to help you to see.

I have learned that Gods word never comes back void so be aware of the Devils snares. We can not judge one another lest we be jugded as well and others points of view (including mine) are accountable to God alone. Same as our convictions. In-fighting will not make anything easier or develope the unity that God desires for His Kingdom or His children.

 I am sorry to use your post as a soapbox but I felt that we all need to be careful and remember that all here are not always disciples. Also that we are all at verious points in our lives and diffrent levels.  We need to remember to be gentle to one another in correcting and teaching and even rebuking and training because that will bring about the rightousness God desires.

HeidiHolly

Thank you so much for your words of wisdom.

Amyjo, how did your meeting with your husband turn out?

I will continue to pray for you.

Christina

Greetings.........it's been awhile since anyone's posted here, I see.  I'm still awaiting the visit from my husband.  He calls weekly, each time saying he's coming the next week.  I refuse to second guess the situation, and am trusting it in God's hands.  I will do whatever it is He wants. 

Please continue to pray that God will shine through me during any conversation that I have with my husband.  I continue to pray for his salvation, and hope that you all will also.

Your sis' in Christ..........LuAnne

Hello,

this round of conversation is all very distressing to me.  I am happily married, in the church, post 2004, however I have known people(some very close friends) who have divorced in the church.  I DO NOT personally understand, nor do I try to or assume that I do.  But, I do know that the decision isn't an easy one or one to be taken lightly, no matter why you choose to divorce, it is a hard painful road, (this is what I have seen in one of my friends). I am happy to hear LuAnne that you continue to pray.  Because, ultimately, it is God who is in control.  I know we have free will, but we always have to go straight to God.

Why this is distressing to me is this:  It all seems very contemptuous.  It doesn't seem loving to me.  I know that we all have opinion and personal feelings, (and I am definitely one that feels the need to express them), and that we need to be open, but above all we need to be disciples of Jesus.

I don't know.  It just makes me sad.  I know this is an important issue and a very close one to people.  We aren't the ones to judge though.  We don't know where everyone is at, and airing our opinions can be hurtful and damaging.

Ephesians 4:29  "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen."

I AM NOT MAKING A STATEMENT ON ONE SIDE OR ANOTHER.  I am only speaking to the tone of the thread.

I will pray for you LuAnn.  I hope that God shows you His will and gives you peace and clarity.  I am very sorry that you are going through this.

Going through my divorce was very very tough. Life has presented me many choices. We are all given many choices. Sometimes we make good choices, sometimes we make bad choices, sometimes we make bad choices but don't want to be held responsible for those choices. I've made my fair share of bad choices. I believe we all have.

To help prevent someone from making a bad choice in the future (divorcing for a reason other than adultery) I offer the following... If you are in an unbearable situation, like your spouse is beating you for example, then you can separate. "must not separate... but if you do...". Sometimes people separate and get back together prematurely. My wife was given the advice to not get back together w/ me for at least 6 months. I HATED THAT ADVICE. But looking back, it was really good advice. I look at other examples who separated but got back together just after two weeks and later they divorced.

Try to get advice from someone who has successfully separated just like you would get any advice to be successful in another area.

My last advice on this matter is simply this...

Dig no deeper than the Word of God.

Trust God.

Trust the Bible.

Trust the Leadership God has put in your life.

Here is a short summary from a study done by our "Teachers"

Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage...For those disciples in the unfortunate position of having divorced (as disciples) without due grounds (adultery), we must have faith that they will be able to survive without remarriage. Reconciliation is the only alternative allowed by Scripture, but God will be with them in that situation (1 Corinthians 10:13).
Similarly, dating couples where one partner is divorced from a believer (on any grounds other
than adultery) should “break up.”

42 In brief form, the following observations sum up most of the key issues:

1. At conversion, people are accepted in their present marital status.
2. Those who leave the fellowship and are restored are also accepted in their present
marital status.
3. Someone in the church whose spouse has been unfaithful has the right to divorce and
remarry since the cause of the divorce was immorality on the part of their mate. Since
this sin allows the marriage bond to be broken for the innocent party, the bond is
broken for both parties, and hence both can remarry. Each local leadership will need
to decide how to deal with the immorality that occurred.
4. It is noteworthy that although the leadership of a local church might respond to an
isolated act of adultery with no more than a private warning to the one who sinned, the
spouse of such a person would be within his/her biblical rights to demand a divorce.
Although reconciliation would always be strongly encouraged, the unfaithfulness may
be so devastating that the faithful spouse can no longer stay in marriage with the
adulterous partner. Divorce should always be considered the last possible resort.
5. Disciples should certainly not divorce one another for other causes, but if they do,
they must remain unmarried or be reconciled (1 Corinthians 7:10-11).
6. If a non-Christian mate leaves a disciple, then the disciple is not bound and can
divorce the one who departs.
7. Any Christian who leaves God is considered an “unbeliever” in light of 1 Corinthians
7:12-15. If the unbelieving spouse deserts the disciple and is no longer willing to live
with them, the faithful spouse can then divorce them.
8. The need for preventive counseling, including the disciplinary steps of Matthew
18:15-17, should always remain our first and strongest line of defense against divorce.
9. Though there are definite Biblical commands and principles regarding divorce and
remarriage, we cannot underestimate the need for leaders to pray for wisdom and seek
advice in order to properly apply them.

May we all strive to please God w/ one accord.

In unity w/ love, Byron

Thanks Sofismom, for sharing, and for your prayers and support.  It means a great deal to me that even tough you and I have never met, you are praying for me.  Our "Family" is so wonderful, and I thank God for you.

I am a firm believer that God answers prayer.....he already has.  Before becoming a disciple, I approached this whole situation much, much differently.  Historically, I'm quick to anger, quick to react and quick to speak.  God is giving me the knowledge, faith and peace to slow down, not get angry, and to be still and let Him guide me.....I am learning to daily surrender my emotions to Him.  He know's my heart.  He knows I never wanted to be in the place that I am now (in marital limbo).  I will keep on praying and keep on seeking God's guidance in making this life-changing decision.

Although the first person to post on this message board did open up to "advice" in her situation, I personally haven't posted seeking advice.  I did want to share my experience and have asked for prayer.  I pray that God can/will use what I've learned through this to help someone else.

Your sister in Christ.........LuAnne

Good morning all......I'm writing to thank those of you who have been praying for my husband and our marital situation.   I'm here to say that our God is an awesome God.  Well, after nearly six months, I unexpectedly got to see my husband for a very short period of time.  He came to my state on business, and decided to come to my town and bring birthday presents for my granddaughter, and to see me, as well as a friend of his who will be going back to Africa in a month or so.  Unfortunately, this unexpected visit happened on an evening that I was working, so I only got to spend about 20 minutes with him during my dinner break.  As you know, I've been praying for God to soften my husband's heart, and for him to find forgiveness in his heart for me, and for whatever ways I contributed to our problems and our separation.  He has been angry and unforgiving for a very long time.  He himself admits that that is part of his nature, and that he's always been that way.  God can soften even the hardest of hearts.....the man who came to my work 2 nights ago seemed a different person, not the angry and cold man that he had been for the last year.  Although he's not at a point of wanting to reconcile, he has found forgiveness and is willing to put the past in the past, and see what happens with our marriage.  I don't know what will happen from here, only God knows.  I will go in whatever direction God leads.  I do know this, GOD ANSWERS PRAYER!  It's not always in the way or the time frame that we may desire.  I will continue to pray for my husband and for our situation.  He plans to come back to visit and have dinner at my place in the near future, when his work schedule allows, to talk some more.  I thank God for guiding my heart, my mind and my words during the last months, and during the conversation I had with my husband.  I'm praying that my husband will see God in me and be inspired by Him.  Thanks for your prayers, both past and future.

Your sister in Christ..........LuAnne

LuAnne,

That's very encouraging. Thanks for sharing.

I'll continue praying for your husband's heart.

Stephen

as a widower who got married in the kingdom i have one (well maybe a few things) to say on this topic. anyone that got married in HIS kingdom should never divorce. mof,they should never think about it. husbands, if you kept wooing your wife the way you did when you went steady, none of this would have to be thought of,or said. if either spouse unfortunately leaves God & wants to divorce because Satan got in there, & they don't want to work things out,then sadly let them go. or say if either spouse came to the church & the other spouse doesn't become a disciple & they want a divorce,i can understand that because they don't really know the bible. if this sounds like i'm rambling,i'm sorry. the word divorce in the kingdom should be considered as swearing. i struck lightning the first time & i have every intention of doing so again.

Hello All....I wish I had something encouraging to post.  Truth is, I'm trying not to be DIScouraged, and am quite truthfully angry.  I was very hopeful when my husband saw me a couple of weeks ago, that there was going to be some progress with us dealing with our marital situation.  Sadly, he hasn't followed through.  It's one thing him involving me, and then not following through with his plan to help me financially, as I'm struggling with many medical expenses, and to visit me to talk, but involving my grandchildren is another thing.  My 9 year old granddaughter loves my husband very much and was very happy when he bought all those birthday gifts for her, but I feel that him doing that stirred up her feelings for him.  She refers to him as her grandfather and calls him "Papi".   She even went so far as to base her "Special Report" at school this week on the country he's from.  She had me call him over the weekend and ask him to call her back....she wanted to get some information on his country from him, and invite him to her classroom to hear her give her report.  He didn't even take the time to call her back.  I know she's disappointed, as am I.  I just got off the phone with him.  He said he was "away" on Sunday, and couldn't call.  Funny thing is, he had called me earlier in the day (a call I missed), so he obviously had his cell with him.  I just plain don't understand why he keeps tugging at our heartstrings by stepping back into our lives, only to leave us cold.  He was very cold and distant during the conversation we had today.  I wanted to tell him how I felt, as God tells us not to let the sun go down on our anger, but before I could say anything,he said that he "wasn't feeling well today".  Historically, that's a wall he's put up in the past to prevent me from discussing serious subjects.  If I did, I was being selfish and only thinking of myself, rather than thinking of him when he wasn't well.

I know I'm rambling......I plan to pray long and hard about this whole situation.  Only god know's what's best

Thanks for listening.  Your sis in Christ............LuAnne

Luanne, I would like to encourage you. I can definitely relate! My ex frustrates me a lot too! I am the one who has the kids 100% of the time. I was in a car accident and now am on disability. He is obligated to pay me on some loans from a as far back as prior to the separation. He keeps telling me next month. Well, next month has never come some what 3 years later! His time with the kids is not consistent. I usually have to ask him to spend time with the kids. He puts off like he is still this spriritual "brother" (who by the way was asked not to come to church), when he lies and lacks integrity! My advice is you do at least have a conversation with him in regards to your grandchildren. Let him know how his actions hurt them. Ask him to make a decision and stand by it-either be involved or not. I would also let him know that if he commits to continuing the relationship with them, it needs to be a solid commitment and if he can't do it, then don't commit. I will pray for your situation, I truly hope things get better! I would also pray that God not allow your heart to grow angry or bitter because of his sin. And I do understand how it affects you.

Thanks Tammy for replying to my post, and for encouraging me.  It is so very important, I know, not to get all wrapped up in anger and resentment towards my husband.  I definitely plan to speak to him about my grandchildren the next time he calls.  I continue to pray for him, and am also striving daily to keep my eyes on God.  The time that I run into trouble is when I give in to ungoldly feelings.  I admit that some days it can seem harder than others to fight those feelings.  I stay in God's word and keep in contact with other disciples, and that keeps me grounded.  One thing that I thank God for is that my oldest daughter is a disciple (since 1999), so even if I don't speak to anyone else on some days, I can always count on having conversations and sharing scriptures with her.

I will pray for you and your situation as well.  Know that I am here if you need a willing ear. 

Your sister in Christ............LuAnne

oh, my dear disciples that are going through what i am going through.  I can surely use prayers and advice on staying strong, and pure in this time of trail.  I too am going through a divorce from my having an afair with a friend of mine.  He and i are still friends, but he has moved on and wants me to move on too.  I truly desire to do, but in a righteous way, not a worldly way.  Oh how I am tempted, but my convictions hold me back.  i still feel like I am living a nightmare, but also know that peace is in my house, once more.  please send and pray for God to use me and allow me to find a new mate.  I have three teens, and that is challening too.  My boys are asking lots of questions, and have lots of concerns that their father should answer, but he does not.  i do have mentors in their lives, and two of my kids are studying to be disciples, but i still feel like more prayers and advice is needed.

Thanks -  mary

Consider your request for prayers granted!

I also applaud your courage to confess your behavior in such a public forum.  Going through a divorce forced me to really wrestle with my faith in a way that was quite foreign to me prior to being faced with such a life-chaning and potentially devestating event.

If you are so inlined, I would suggest seeing a therapist or other counselor to get a disinterested third-party evaluation of what decisions you may have to make both now and in the future.  While we ought not rely solely on worldly advice, "many advisors make victory sure".

Best,

Bob

Bob - thank you so much for the response and the encouragment.  One thing I was taught early on in my life as a disciple is to be open about your sin and willing to get advice and help for your repentance of such sin.  Therefore, I am an open book, and strive for a soft heart.  Yet, in the times of trouble that I am going through such qualities do not always come through.  Hence, me reaching out to the brothers and sisters for prayers and advice.  I do have a great core group of disciples and non-disciples who are helping me through this time in my life, and councelling would be an assest, but time does not permit.  I have to say that Satan is on the prowel, so pray for my soul, and the souls around us who are struggling as I.

Thank you -

Mary

Oh, wow, what a challenge you have put out there.  If all men thought like you, you are right there would be no divorce out there.  Yet, their is, and so here we are.  Well, keep on challenging the brothers and sisters (for that matter) on how to encourage and keep your spouse.  Amen for Brothers like you!!!!!!!!!!! =0)

Mary

First and foremost, I am very encouraged that you are holding on to God. I know many who have fallen into sin and decide to leave God completely. Keep your openness as a deflector of Satan's arrows.

You, your children, the man divorcing you, and the man you had an affair with, are all in my prayers. God works in all situtaions for good. Even when we screw up, God can bring something good out of it.

It is awesome that two of your kids are studying to become disciples!!! Be mindful of the decisions you make during this time because as we all know "kids see everything".

I agree w/ Bob that seeking counseling can be a good thing and that we don't need to rely solely (sp?) on worldly advice, in fact we should depend more on Scripture and Godly advice from our leaders and other disciples and take worldly advice w/ a grain of salt.

Seeing a therapist/counselor can be good, but if you are given a choice between two bowls of water - the counselor's words and our Counselor's Word, don't lap up like a dog the bowl of the water that does not completely satisfy. Let not the counselor Supercede the Counselor.

I see a 'counselor'/therapist about once a month and sometimes every two weeks and have been doing so for several years now. Not everything she says is good though. Some directions she has given me goes 100% against what the Scriptures teach. Most advice and direction she gives is good and helpful though.

When you say "He and i are still friends, but he has moved on and wants me to move on too. I truly desire to do, but in a righteous way, not a worldly way", is the 'He' the man divorcing you or is the "He" the man you had an affair with? What if moving on in a righteous way entails you living w/out a mate? Would you be ok w/ that? Moving on in a 'worldly way' could mean doing anything you want regardless of what the Word says. But that is not what you want. What you want your kids to see is you holding to your convictions, rooted in the Word, even when it hurts - where the rubber meets the road.

I think a lot of us want to repent and be done w/ our sin - and we do need to repent 'to change the way we think' - but sometimes there are lingering consequences for our sin.

Jer 46:28 I will discipline you but only with justice;
I will not let you go entirely unpunished."

As a consequence for sin earlier in my life Prv 5:9-10 ring true as I was shelling out $600 a mo in child support.

Prv 5:9 lest you give your best strength to others
and your years to one who is cruel,

10 lest strangers feast on your wealth
and your toil enrich another man's house.

Would you be willing to accept, as a consequence of you sin, the sentence of remaing single?

Lk 16:18"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery,

and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

For how can a woman commit adultery, be divorced because of her adultery,

remarry, and not be committing adultery?

As an open book, let the Author and Perfector of our faith write in your coming chapters!!!

In unity w/ love, Byron

Oh my gosh, I am so greatful for all of the love and support through this time, but I am not the one who had the affair (typo on my part - sorry).  My soon-to-be-ex is the one who had the affair.  Now that is not to say that I was and am not still tempted on a moment to moment to daily time period.  Therefore, me reaching out for help is and will be a must until it is dead in my soul.  Yes, My ex and I are still friends, and yes he is still very much in my childrens lives.  I do still love the children's father very much, I just know that God has shut that chapter in my life.  I have forgiven him, and am moving on, yet, I still have my moments of insanity/lack of better judgement.  Therefore, please continue to send the prayers, advice and such.  My e-mail is:marileebates@yahoo.com if one wants to send it to my personal e-mail.

As far as remaing single for the rest of my life - that I will need to wrestle with God and his scriptures on.  If that is God's will for my life, than so be it, but I will always hold out hope.

LK 16:18 rings true in my ears as well.  That is a struggle for me, but the sisters in my life are showing me that because I am not the one who committed the adultry I can still get married again, but it is ultimatly up to God and his plan for my life.

Yes, I can see how falling away is a very easy thing to do, even though I have been in the Kingdom for over 14 years, and been apart of 5 different churches.  It is amazing how Satan can disguies his tactics, and make things look like they are from God, but they really are from him.  Therefore, I stand on Psalms 121 and remember that my help comes from God, and only God.

Thank you -  Mary

LuAnne,

I really do feel for you. And this will probably sound rude(the tone of emails can make some think something else and read more into the email) but you asked why does he keep tugging at yours and your grandchildren's heart strings or some sort. Frankly, he does it because you allow him. He knows your weakness so he useses it against you. Even though the Bible says women should be submissive it doesn't say we shouldn't be strong women and men should treat us any differently then Jesus treated the church. And I am so sick and tired of people commenting on this page that are married or single and never have been divorced. You make it sound like we are bitter. Don't feel sorry for us! Especially me. Yes, it is in the Bible don't divorce but it doesn't mean you can't get married again regardless whether you were a disciple or not. Would God rather have you in a marriage of destruction or happy being single? I say the later. I am glad I got divorced. My relationship with was strenthed by it. And, I wouldn't change a thing. I would get divorced all over again! I am saved and I am worthy of being in a relationship. I find it funny that people quote scripture that they want it to pertain to trying to get their point across but no one knows exactly what the Bible says word for word. The Bible also says men should wear tassles and you shouldn't have tatoos. Every one has their own interpretation of Bible different scriptures mean and the Bible was written with certain people in mind. Please be careful how you use the scriptures. Know why that particular part of the Bible was used for and what people it was written for. I am sorry if I don't make sense. It's late.

Christina

Christina........I appreciate your honest and heartfelt comments.  Recently I started reading a book called "The Emotionally Destructive Relationship...seeing it, stopping it, surviving it".  This book, with the scriptural references it includes, have helped me to learn exactly what you said......I have allowed my husband's behavior, and now I realize it HAS to stop.

Thanks again my sister.........LuAnne

Wow, it is amazing how many marrieges are struggling and ending up in divorce, especially sense the changes.  I am one of them, so I am not passing judgement, but empathy.  I am tending to agree with Christine that it is time to break ties and move on.  Yet, I do believe talking to your leaders or discipler will help in compossing a plan of action for you.  I also would sit down and talk to your husband let him know the the grandkids still want to be friends with him, and so if he wants it too, to please not make them suffer for his feelings towards you.  Help him to remember and understand that the kids and grandkids are sufferering too, and they should not have to pay for something that they had nothing to do with.  Children are the ones who will suffer the most, no matter what happens to your relationship, so the most love and support you and your husband can give to them, despite your feeling for each other, will be the best all the way around.  This is something I feel most strongly about and am learning how beneficial it is with my pending divorce.  My soon-to-be-ex and I are there for all of our kids activities, and even sit together for games and performances, but when we have to discuss anything that has the potential to be confertational we either leave the room where the kids are or we plan to leave the house and meet up at a neutral place.  My ex does not live her anymore, but he is over about 2-3 times a week - to see the kids.  My children are teens, so there is not much at all that can be put past them, and they SEE EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!! Even if we do not think they understand or get what is being discussed.

Well, just know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and remember that "many advisors" is a good thing!!!!!!!!  Please also do not forget that "advice is advice, not law!"

marilee

LuAnne,

I don't know you but just by your post you are such a patient, caring person. Your responses to everyone have been so encouraging and God will walk this challenging walk with and you will be amazed how strong you really are.  For anyone who is going through a divorce, separation etc please pray, divorce does not have to mean its a death sentence it can mean a new start. Surround yourself with encouraging people. People you trust even if they don't agree with your decisions. Surround yourself with people who have your best interest at heart. God is not a mean God, He does discipline and through situations like this we will be disciplined. There is a young lady here that is getting divorced and I do apologize I can't remember your name. My advise to you and I know you probably have so many people telling you things but my two cents. Regardless whether you get divorced or not. You have three boys. You are a mom and you need to be strong for your kids. One thing that I am proud off and I have made so many mistakes but when my husband left us homeless and we had to live in a shelter my responsibility has a mom was to make sure my kids had a relationship with their father. Some men are horrible husbands but awesome dads. I don't know where yours stand. But, keep comments to yourself and your friends. Your children need you. You have friends that you should be able to vent to or this site lol..... I never allowed anyone to talk bad about their dad. I am glad I did. I prayed and cried in private. And you know what it must have worked because I always believed in God but one night I was reading Phil in the shelter and I cried myself to sleep and that was the day I started a relationship with God. Four years later I became a disciple. And, I never blieved this and you probably won't believe this either but time does heal. You won't forget and your heart will mend if you let it. I took a class at the singles conference in Texas. It was actually be accident. I went into the wrong room but God knew I needed this class. It was such an amazing class. One thing I learned from that class was you don't have to bring friends with your ex. It sound minut but it is an amazing release that yeh its ok. I am in a place right now that I ever thought possible. I have gone on so many encouraging dates and I am having a blast being single. Yeh!!! Is it a challenge being a single mom and not being really financially well off. You bet but I wouldn't change a thing. It can't get any worse lol......

Christina 

This makes more sense than you know, Christina.

If the scriptures (at least the ones in the NIV, anyway, to say NOTHING of the scriptures who didn't make the cut in the [largely Protestant] Bible used in church services today) are the ONLY authority for our lives, I believe we will fall woefully short of the optimal appreciation for the life God has blessed us with.  It is certainly AN authority for me and arguably the MAIN authority, but it is not the only one.  I do place some stock in some of the same things the editors who brought us the Bible placed stock in.  Books like Ecclesiastes, Job, and Jonah were strongly influenced by other ancient works of wisdom literature.  Some of the central stories that we point to don't even have Hebrews as the central characters!

The Bible is a cherished and inspired text, to be sure.  It is not the terminal point of God's love for us.  God loves us more than words can describe.

Hello Everyone!

I was very encouraged to see someone start a discussion about this topic.  It has touched so many different lives in God's churches!  I was recently divorced this September.  My husband and I were married for four years.  I grew up in the church and we dated and were married in the church.  I found out in May that he had been unfatihful in our marriage and had led a double life for many years.  Through many prayers and time I am healing.  Sometimes I feel as if I take one step forward in the process and two steps back.  I can honestly say that the last six months of my life have been the most amazing time in my life.  Filled with much heartache and grief God has also conforted me as I have never felt before.  I feel as if God has given me a second chance at my life.  I am so very grateful for what I have gone through and what I have learned.  I know that my journey in this area is not yet over, that I have many things to grow in and to still learn.

Much Love,

Lauren

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All

I just found this message board and wanted to pop in and say hello.

My long story short: I dated and was married in church; we were married for 6 years. Jan 2008 he left me...August 2008 I found out about his unfaithfulness and we soon filed for divorce...Oct 2008 divorce was finalized (no kids, no house, so FL allows for a quickie divorce!).

Couple of questions for the board:

1) Anyone else struggling with the holidays here?  Christmas went ok, but I am not really looking forward to New Year's Eve. Definitely dealing with some depression here!

2) I have sort of been with marrieds for 2008 and I am now trying to decide if it is time to jump into the singles.  How long did everyone else wait before they joined the singles?

Happy New Year to you all!

Sarah

Dear Sarah,

I am sorry to hear about your situation. Unfortantly there is no set time. Each individual person needs time to heal. As far as deciding to join singles or not, I would hang out with both and give yourself time to decide which group you can really grow in spiritually, emotionally. The singles might be good at times you just want to hang out and move on and be social. The marrieds may be good for Bible talk and focus groups.  Singles may not understand the consequences of being divorced or what you are going through and what I have experienced with singles that they think they are perfect and it wouldn't happen to them.  The married at least are married and know how difficult it is to be in a relationship but may not understand your divorce.

Keep things simple for right now. You need time to heal and cry and allow your heart to heal. Give yourself some time. Time does heal.

My situation is a little different. I won't to be with the singles and I am but I am with the marrieds because my kids need to grow up with other disciples. Surround yourself with people who encourage you even if they don't agree with your decision. God loves you. Now you can do things that are pleasing to him. And by all means have some fun. Divorce doesn't mean your dead. Get out there and start dating.....

 Two things to remember here:

1. LuAnne's situation is a bit different. Her husband was never a member of the church. They were separated when she was baptised. Personally, I find her efforts to reconcile her relationship with her husband heroic. The easy thing for her to do would have been to simply move on and not look back.

2. This is a thread about divorce, so of course most of the people posting are either divorced or going through a divorce. Most of the marriages in the congregation I'm a part of are doing well. Of course, even good marriages have their challenges, but if both people are remaining faithful to God, being open with their lives, and getting help from others they will always be successful in the long run, imo.  

Christina - Thank you very much for your sweet and encouraging words.  It is nice to find a message board filled with people who all understand this crazy journey we are now on.  I am fortunate in that the people around me did and do support my decision to get a divorce.  It saddens me though that there would be people in the church would give us a hard time. I already feel like a bit of an outcast, I don't need other disciples adding to that.

You are right though, I do need to get out and have some fun in this new year - I am definitely praying about ways to make that happen. =)

Happy New Year!

Sarah

Happy New Year! How is everyone doing? Good start to a new year so far?

Sarah,

I can understand feeling like an outcast. Even though I had not done wrong, and tried my hardest to reconcil, there were times I felt so alone, even within the Church.  And after the divorce, I really felt out of place in our Marrieds family group.  They were a lot of support, but of course, they weren't going through it, I was. it was only in coming closer to God, and drawing on His strength that I got through it all.  Of course, at the time, there was no singles ministry here, so I had no choice.  Of course, now that I co-lead the singles ministry here, we have one, and out of our 6 Brothers and sisters, 3 of us are divorced.

It took me a year to start going out on dates again, and at first it was very tough.  Fortunately, there was a sister here who had become such a close friend, that having my first date again with her made it so much easier.  Of course, at the time I had also stated I would never get involved in a relationship, but I'm learning that when you use the word never, God will find a way to confront the pride that is involved in a "never" statement.

Which now has brought up a whole new set of challenges that I am currently dealing with.  I guess having been married for 17 years, I had forgotten just how difficult the courting period of a relationship is. Ugghh.

YBIC

Paul

Paul - thx for the response.  We do have a decent-size singles group here.  Part of me thinks I need to go ahead and join and then the other part of me just gets a little freaked out about the whole idea. We were only married for 6 years. I can't imagine how hard it is/was for you after 17yrs!  To be honest, God is really the only reason I even made it through 2008!  I know i def feel lonely most days so I am glad I can cling to God right now.

I hope that 2009 is a better year for all of us!

After 18 months of separation, attempts to meet with my husband to discuss our marriage, advice seeking and prayer, I ultimately filed for a divorce.  It will be final in September.  Thanks to all who encouraged me and prayed for me.  I've had a lot of time to "mourn" the loss of this marriage, and am looking forward to a new life as a single disciple.  I thank God that through this very difficult time I was able to find Him and the beautiful gift of life that He has given to me.

There are several subjects on DTSpace that attracted a lot of emotions and lots of spirituality.  A post on dating outside the church also attracted about 60 posts.   Personally I am single (but don't jump on to next subject please.)  A struggle I have is also very tabo and frowned upon and hard for the majority of disicples to understand.  God put it in my life as a thorn to keep me humble.  It certainly can make me feel alone, insecure, helpless, ashamed, and guilty (even without actually sinning.)  So, in this way I do feel I can relate a bit.

If I choose to sin by having a fit of rage; Or if I choose to sin by being prideful, does someone not forgive me, show me my fault, and then move on?  Then, when I do it again, the same discipling happens, including forgiveness.  The difference between divorce and a fit of rage is that one might commit the sin of a fit of rage often, but a divorce is a rare occurance.  (Ok, that might be an oversimplification, but read on there is a point.)

The Bible states to forgive and to bare with one another in Love.  That means no matter what the choice of the individual, we still need to love and support and encourage them.  Whether it would be sin for one person to choose a divorce or not, whether you choose to date some other person not attending the ICOC, or whatever, it is simply one choice in there life out of very many.  We need to be so much more forgiving.

We as humans give advice.  God has made the rules, not us.  I personally can find it hard if I think I have given great Biblical advice for someone to go and not follow it.  How AROGANT of me!  Who am I to expect someone to follow my advice?  The greatest gift a disciple gave to me recently was the gift to choose whether to declare bankruptcy or not and either way he said he would support my decision.  And he did!  Did I get much advice?  Yes!  Was I using it as a last resort?  I believe I was.  Since God gives us the option to make choices (good or bad), how much more should we give that freedom to each other.

Thanks for letting me say my 2 cents worth on this topic.

Love, YBIC, Jason

I am not married yet, but some of my best friends have been married in the church. 2 come to mind quickly. Both of whom I told that both them and their girlfriend's were not focused on God, and that would hurt their relationship. The first brother loved a woman with major depression. I told him it would not be easy. @ years after being married, he said to me, "I have never been so miserable than since I got married". Him and his wife left the church. They did not divorce, but continue to live in misery. The second brother, right after getting home from his honeymoon, his wife said that she was miserable too. She had a baby with him and then packed up and left him while he was at work. A focus on God needs to come first.

I am divorced. Before a couple gets married there are a few things they should do (we did not). Do not sweep problems under the rug and smooth over recurrent problems. They must be addressed gently, but head on. If the problem(s) IS NOT resolved within a reasonable period of time, the relationship should end. If there are recurrent disagreements, the relationship should end. The point of a relationship is to glorify God and to be happy. Recurrent disagreements defeats the entire purpose of this kind of relationship. A brother or sister with an unresolved (through extensive spiritual and/or psychological counseling) past emotional trauma, witness to abusive relationships amongst caretakers, or mental illness should not be dating, much less get married until it is resolved, and in the case of mental illness at least well managed. During pre-marital counseling, the dislikes each partner has about the other must be discussed item by item and each partner must show the capacity and the TRACK RECORD of resolving issues in an emotionally healthy and spiritual/Biblical manner. This is not something to verify after marriage. Lastly, a dating relationship does not HAVE to be successful and/or proceed to marriage. Giving up on a bad relationship is healthy. First and foremost we are brother and sister, before and above anything.

I do not propose this advice as gospel, but as my advice/opinion. I wish you the best.

This part is Gospel, if a couple is married and miserable, the solution is not to leave God. God can, if believe in Him, help the marriage. James 4:1 Marriage problems come from within us. God is the one who provides the answers.

Ed M.

 I like where you took this Jen....I like a fool followed a brother's "demand" for me  (because my ex-girlfriend wanted me in this church).  I was going to marry this sister and I was dating her for 6 months in her church (not mine) before all the brothers and sisters in this church attacked me like they were protecting her her or something....They brow beat her into leaving me but she didn't she told them she did...to keep her happy, I  followowed this brother's advice.....he at the end of it all denied me any connection with  her and I call this criminal...this is man's bullying and not God's plan....

I have never been married. However, I have been around a lot of diciples who have been divorced. I have been a disciple for 24 years and was in the mainline 7 years before that. I realize what the scriptures about divorce say at face value. However, it seems every situation is different and it calls for wisdom. Over the years the church has not really known how to help divorced people. It wasn't too long ago the church did know not how to help alchoholics and drug additcts. From what I have experienced so far it seems the answer will come from wise church leaders and professional (secular or christian) counselors. A lot of divorced people either have or will have a lot of emotional damage and even deep psychological issues. We need to encourage them to be faithful when it is so tempting for them to blame God. I have heard people say they "did it the right way". They followed the rules (double dating, praying and fasting for the relationship, asking God to not allow them to marry the wrong one etc.) only to find they still got divorced. Could your faith handle that?

We need to love and keep these brothers and sisters faithful.